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12 Comments Received

M. Douglas Harper, Jr.
August 30th, 2005 @3:55 pm  

Well done, Michael! You have opened up the areas we need to pursue over the next months. Perhaps a series of articles is needed, picking up specific aspects of the process you have outlined. Many thanks! Doug Harper

Renee
August 30th, 2005 @3:56 pm  

Thanks so much!!!!

Tim Cahn
August 30th, 2005 @3:57 pm  

The flaw in your logic, Michael, is the assumption that we are united as a denomination in the view that homosexuality is incompatible with ordination. That such a view may have been “spelled out” in national standards does not reflect unity, but rather the result of majority-win voting in a closely-divided church. The TF’s statement seems like a reasonable, nuanced way forward, grounded in Presbyterian doctrine and history, that both recognizes the duty of the church to establish standards and the local bodies, while recognizing such standards, applying them in responsible ways that reflect realities “on the ground” that, while not always in perfect accord with such standards, nonetheless adhere to the “essentials.” This is not new doctrine or practice, but, as the Report acknowledges, reaches back to 1729. I hope that, on a more careful reading and consideration of this document, PFR will get behind it as did all the members of the Committee.

Blessings,

Tim Cahn
Member of the Board of Directors of the Covenant Network of Presbyterians, and an ordained elder of Seventh Avenue Presbyterian Church in San Francisco, a member church of More Light Presbyterians.

Garret Dawsom
August 30th, 2005 @3:58 pm  

Michael, I think you did some quick, excellent analysis of the effect of the proposed A.I., and I think you’re “spot on” in that regard. I don’t feel quite as rosy about the theological section as your comment–those affirmations have very little definition, very little teeth and seem to me to be subject to the same varying interpretations as ordinations standards. Also, is this the time for more conversation on homosexuality or is thirty years and numerous declarative votes finally sufficient?

Gerrit Dawson
Senior Pastor, First Presbyterian Church, Baton Rouge, LA

Anonymous Presbytery PJC Chair
August 30th, 2005 @3:59 pm  

Michael - -

This is for conditional publication, not for named attribution: As a PJC chair from a highly affected area, I can say, “Michael, you’ve said it!” If this AI [as I now understand it] goes forward, it will affirm current unconstitutional practice [that is already exceedingly hard to “prove”], remove ANY effective grounds for judicial review, and start us down the road of the whiplash when eventually highly motivated presbytery leaders will have grounds to bring up charges against sessions that refuse to affirm gay and lesbian behavior because they are incorrectly asserting essentials.

Thank you.

Chair of a Presbytery PJC

Jeffrey McDonald
August 30th, 2005 @4:00 pm  

Thank you for your wise analysis of the Task Force report.

Jeff McDonald
Member, Covenant Presbyterian Church, Omaha, Nebraska

Andy Dearman
September 2nd, 2005 @5:58 pm  

Thanks, Michael, for a careful assessment ot the complexities that result from the AI proposed by the task force. There are several problematic elements, but it seems to me the most insidious is the Trojan Horse role of the newly proposed AI for G-6.0108. It is an extremely clever proposal to get around what appears at first as an insurmountable problem. Currently the official meaning of G-6.0106b for the ordination issue is expressed in an AI. An AI can be reversed by a subsequent General Assembly pronouncement. Since the “pro-ordination” forces know that they have no chance of removing G-6.0106b by a 2/3 vote of Presbyteries (the insurmountable problem), there is hope that some form of GA pronouncement or PJC ruling can accomplish the same goal. The AI of G-6.0108 proposed by the task force is a Trojan Horse to accomplish the goal of overturning the AI of G.6.0106b. “Once inside the gate” the proposed AI will eventually lead, directly or indirectly, to the demise of the current AI, which undergirds the official ordination policy so much in discussion and debate. It will lead de facto to local option. Never mind the smooth talk that no changes de jure are being proposed. It is the end result that matters for the “pro” side, not the particular means that bring it to pass. And this will happen without Presbyteries getting a vote.

Rev. John Bret Moser IV
September 2nd, 2005 @5:59 pm  

As absurd as the, “Let the presbyteries decide if it is essential” is, almost so is the notion of the “Ten more years to talk about it” idea. The heart is in the right place, but how many more decades must go by before we finally agree that this perverse notion cannot be reconciled? How long have we been debating this issue, twenty, thirty plus years? How long can the denomination go on hemoraging our membership in the tens of thousands? How many times will we vote on this issue until we get tired of casting a vote that our leadership ignores? Waiting ten more years is just a way of calling in hospice care. We will surely die as a body if we do not have the guts to take a stand and say “no more!” It is apparent that the peace and purity report is just another gigantic waste of time and money that could have gone to feed and clothe the poor and helpless. May God and the poor He has entrusted to us, forgive us for such a tremendous waste of His bounty.

Timothy C. Engleman
September 2nd, 2005 @6:00 pm  

We need to honor and show gratitude for the Task Force’s leadership in demonstrating humility, diligence and creativity. Perhaps this most helpful work is the best we should expect considering the difficulty of their charter and diversity of their composition. Perhaps the denomination as a whole needs to take up from where they led us and show even more comprehensive leadership – by adopting the moratorium you propose.

I can’t help viewing their recommendation in light of past controversies. Having just finished Bradley Longfield’s “Presbyterian: Fundamentalists, Modernists and Moderates,” I note that we have tried before to avoid resolution of doctrinal disputes by implementing a solution through polity. During the 20s and 30s, as the suggest now, we pushed the difficult issues to local jurisdictions. Although it avoided major schism, did it produce a healthy, growing denomination?

Neither does schism produce health. J. Gresham Machen’s principled separation was only another peeling off of conservatives that moved the denomination’s center to the left. There does not seem to be a propensity among those who secede to find like-minded groups with whom to cooperate. And, if I read the “New Wineskins” movement accurately, they seem to be prepared to invite their opponents to “peel off.”

While all of us are clearly not united behind our present ordination standards, three successive votes, just as clearly, show where our center of gravity is. Doesn’t good stewardship guide us to repose at that center for a time, freeing our resources and wills to engage in mission? Ten years’ repose is not stasis. Discernment and debate will continue, perhaps more productively when liberated from biennial confrontations. Even Henry Sloane Coffin, a nominal winner in the controversy of the 30s, admitted a changed perspective after a decade.

Faithful leadership does not fear change. Neither is it required to entertain a continual call to change that paralyzes progress.

Peggy Perry
September 9th, 2005 @8:20 pm  

I can’t believe the Task Force is proud of their work nor how the conservatives in
the group can go along with it. Their proposed Authoritative Interpretation is a
parliamentary trick designed to allow gay ordination without having to admit that’s
what they want. Such an slimy result after so many years.

And we are to emulate that process? “Learn to listen to one another” apparently
means to learn to have your own way without having to submit a proposal to the vote
of the churches.

Sincerely and deeply disappointed but not at all surprised,

Peggy Perry
Rose Hill Presbyterian Church
Kirkland, WA

James Small
October 12th, 2005 @2:41 am  

To enter a ten-year moratorium would be to bury the one talent.

Cameron Mott
September 19th, 2006 @2:49 am  

Michael, judging by the link supplied, your conclusions seem to be based on the PUP AI as proposed; does the PUP AI as amended and passed change your perceptions?

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