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12 Comments Received

Renee Guth
July 5th, 2006 @2:48 pm  

I’m encouraged by much of your writing here, especially:

“… we are free to no longer look to our… higher governing bodies as the primary means of giving expression to the unity and identity of our covenant community… we can do so in ways that will give alternative and ultimately more unified expression to our covenant community. It is about the relationships – congregation to congregation, and gatherings of elders and pastors. We find ourselves in a time where the institutional modes of maintaining these relationships are failing, and we need to develop new patterns.”

Thanks!

Jeffrey Ogden
July 5th, 2006 @3:04 pm  

Thank you for the discussion about “What is the PC(USA)?” As I have listened to national staff (particularly the ACC) talk about the denomination, I feel they are continually confusing the mystical body of Christ, the church universal, with the PC(USA), a very human structure, as well as confusing the church gathered in individual congregations with the property where they assemble.

We need some serious work done on these issues before the next Assembly, in order to have resources to enable intellegent discussion about who we are and what really should be the source of our connectionalism. Is it ultimately Christ or our polity, the Holy Spirit or our property that holds us together?

Ted Schuldt
July 6th, 2006 @12:06 pm  

Thank you, Michael, for a vision of hope for our congregations. I will take up the challenge to be “free to be faithful”.

Anonymous For the Moment
July 7th, 2006 @12:36 pm  

I serve a congregation which sees this Assembly as having crossed a line and gone to a place we can’t follow.

I believe that the PC(USA) no longer bears the marks of the true Church as expressed in the Scots Confession. To leave the denomination will not be leaving the Church. It will be to rejoin it.

Bob Gohlke
July 9th, 2006 @4:40 pm  

Michael,
This is a beautiful, well reasoned piece which makes a lot of sense.
However, I would like to respond on a more visceral basis to the issues
you have identified and addressed.

Haven’t we been “innocent as a dove” long enough? Don’t we also need to
begin to be as “wise as a serpent”?

To whit: Aren’t we in danger of getting coopted into the principal
paradigm of deception of our era, which seems to me to be “The Emperor’s
New Clothes” fable? Aren’t we caught in the position of arguing and
reacting to the style and fit of the Emperor’s New Clothes, rather than
exposing the tailors for the frauds and clever deceivers that they are?

Can’t the dynamics of the advancement of the so-called “liberal” and
“post-modernist” agenda, whose activists occupy most of the paid
positions at the national level, be broken down like this: All of their
humanistic and naturalistic arguments are couched in the terminology of
the “Philosophy of Good Intentions” which in turn allows them praise the
naked Emperor’s (the naked truth of their proposals) new clothes for
their style and fit, so the result of their campaigns produces a mix for
change which is approximately 10% activist and 90% “Good Intentioners”
(many of whom would be horrified if they truly understood the truth and
consequences of the point of view they are backing)? And isn’t it true
that, also covered by “the Emperor’s new clothes” is the fact that, the
primary goal of these activists is to gain and maintain control and the
exercise of naked power at any given organization?

Will polite words and exhortations sway the activists and most of their
followers? I think not. Besides exposing, in the love of Christ, the naked truths of their agendas, their tactics and their (for the most part) denial of the
reality, truth and power of the Living Christ, the Living Word, and of his
written Word, the Holy Bible, it seems to me that the most effective weapon we have at our disposal is identifying key individuals in these movements, and
organizing prayer groups targeting these individuals for the sincere
prayers of blessings for those “who persecute you (us) and spitefully
use you (us)”. That way, we are specifically delivering them into the
hands of the Living Christ for his blessings and ministry. (They will
laugh at this anyway until He makes himself known to them.)

If it is deemed worth fashioning a strategy to try and reclaim the
higher courts for the oversight of purity of doctrine, spiritual discipline, and for administrative support functions, that is worth a lot of thought and planning. It seems that to do less and remain with the denomination for the sake of
the name is, under the presbyterian form of polity, desertion anyway.

Renee Guth
July 10th, 2006 @2:50 pm  

I’m interested in how you would or would not apply Mark 7:5-8 to our current situation.

May our Lord bless us all with wise discernment, patience with one another, and boldness in proclaiming Biblical truth.

Bob Gohlke
July 12th, 2006 @12:18 pm  

Ms. Guth,
I would like to know how you would describe our current situation in the context of Mark 7:5-8? How would you cast the players in the narrative?

Renee Guth
July 14th, 2006 @4:06 pm  

In looking at the context of Mark 7:5-8, Mark tells us in verse 3 that the Pharisees’ position was not based on what was in the Old Testament but as “holding to the tradition of the elders”.

Mark then quotes Isaiah with four complaints:

1) These people honor me with their lips (give me “lip-service”)
2) Their hearts are far from me
3) They worship me in vain
4) Their teachings are but rules taught by men,

In this small section Jesus concludes with “You have let go of the commands of God and are holding onto the traditions of men” which is restated again in verse 9 in case we missed it the first time!

I think almost all of us fit within the four complaints written by Isaiah to some degree. So, I wouldn’t cast any particular characters. Also, I believe that we all hold on to the traditions of men, not in conscience disobedience so much as a lack of reflection or awareness.

So, in this particular discussion, in what way(s) are we “holding onto the traditions of men” and in what ways are we following the commands of God. I assume that in each of us there is some of both.

What I greatly appreciate about Michael is his ability to sort through complex conditions in a Biblical way. I appreciate the journey whether I agree with his conclusion(s) or not.

Grace & Peace

Ronald J. Dover
July 31st, 2006 @4:39 am  

You are as confused as the members of the PUP committee. Its not about the PC(USA)! Its about God and the Bible. You are leading Christians down a path of compromise on “essentials”

Michael Walker responds: “Dear Mr. Dover,

Thank you for submitting your heartfelt comment. You mentioned that I was confused and leading people astray. I am, of course, trying to be clear and faithful. If you could let me know a little about how you think my comments in the speech were off the mark then I could understand your concern and have the opportunity to consider it, and perhaps respond to it if time permits.

Thanks again.

Michael

Bill Buiten
August 12th, 2006 @12:05 pm  

My wife and I plan to be at your workshop in the upcoming conference. We have noted that the Evangelical Presbyterian Denomination has extended an invitation to PCUSA churches to join their fellowship, and at least one church in Iowa has responded, with overwhelming approval of the local presbytery. Would not this avenue offer a more realistic way for evangelical churches to leave this apostate denomination, rather than sort of creating a church within a church, with no hope of reconciliation. Our church in Virginia has three pastors, all of whom sneer at the three statements of the Confessing Church movement, which puts them completely at odds with the historic faith, and with those of us who cling to that “faith of our fathers.” Please cover this possibility in your workshop

Anonymous
August 13th, 2006 @12:19 am  

Ms. Guth:
I am hoping you were meaning to ask me how I would apply Mark 7:5-8 to the current situation. If you were speaking to Michael, I apologize in advance for answering a question I was not asked. You have selected an extremely timely example of Christ’s relationship with those in authority.

I appreciated your thoughtful discourse and explanation of your applicaton of these verses to our present situation. In your discussion to verses 5-8, you have given a thorough and accurate evaluation, from the Pharisees’ point of view and value system, of the Lord’s rebuke of the Pharisees as it applied to them, under the Old Covenant, and as it also might apply to us (if we were bound strictly to the Laws and Traditions of the Old Covenant).

I would like to focus on the Pharisees question to Jesus Christ, and their (likely) motivation: to trap Christ into an actionable statement.

(Also, for me, there is a huge difference between Mark quoting Isaiah and Mark quoting Jesus Christ, quoting Isaiah. I believe in the second description, wholly.)

In verse 5, the Pharisees asked the Lord: “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”. I believe the truth of the Lord’s answer in this passage is found on two levels, both unmistakably spiritual in nature: 1) They were trying to convict Christ of teaching violations to their set of rules, while failing to worship and honor and obey, in their hearts, the God who made the rules, and in whose name they made the rules they were failing to obey; 2) In exactly the same way as the Jews for whom Isaiah uttered the referenced rebuke, as identified by the details of the rebuke, these spiritual leaders were again spiritually unable to recognize the living God, the Son of God, and the Word of God, standing and speaking before them.

(Contrast this with the response of the Samaritan woman at the well after speaking with Christ (John 4:5-26, 39-42). This woman was likely marginalized by her behaviour and lifestyle, even in the Samaritan society, and yet, she was taught in the worship of the one true God, and she expected the Messiah, and she believed Christ when he told her that was who He was, and she believed in Him.)

If the above is true, this scenario would then apply to those who create any kind of value system of their own which ignores the clear teaching and commandments, and the truth, of Jesus Christ, and who have had the chance to know Him, and failed to believe in Him, in their hearts, by making Him both Saviour and Lord of their life. Personally, I believe there must be numerous individuals in positions of decision-making and authority, in the national and regional administrative and court system, who fall in this category.

(In relation to this situation, Christ did not dispute the Pharisees authority, but he went on and did what he was called to do and what he had to do: Announce that God had come to men in human form, that salvation was going to be given to men individually and personally, that He must be sacrificed, die, and rise again for the sins of mankind, and that by believing in Him, forgiveness of sins, eternal life, and fellowship with Him was being given, and to gather and teach his disciples to announce the same.)

I wish you rich blessings and the wisdom to use them fruitfully.

Bob Gohlke
August 13th, 2006 @12:24 am  

The above is also mine, without name. Probably pretty obvious.

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